Jorge Dezcallar: "Donald Trump is behaving irresponsibly and I think it's pathetic"
Jorge Dezcallar, the Spanish ambassador, spoke in depth about the current global situation and the situation generated by the elections held in the United States during Atalayar's programme on Capital Radio. He harshly criticised Donald Trump's current behaviour, not recognising the election result that gave victory to Joe Biden.
What does the future hold for US relations with China once Joe Biden takes office as president on 20 January?
I think there is agreement here that there are few bipartisan arrangements in the United States that consider China to be a strategic enemy. Above all, because of its technological progress as a result of the "made in China" plan promoted by Xi Jinping, who has spent $300 billion on promoting cutting-edge technology in a number of companies. But the fact is that China also views the United States as a very hostile power that is attempting at all costs to prevent China from fulfilling its legitimate right to development and technological leadership and to put an end to what they call that century of humiliation that began with the opium wars and ended with victory in the Mao revolution. So I think that the two are at odds and that this is going to get worse; Joe Biden is probably very firm on human rights issues, firmer than Donald Trump, but also China's territorial ambitions on the China Sea issue and, above all, Taiwan obviously, but they will seek cooperation if they can on the issues of climate, or COVID-19 or nuclear proliferation. In other words, I believe that forms will change, but I believe that the underlying hostility will remain.
Do you agree with the assessment that Joe Biden's internal problems in the United States may relegate the external agenda, the problems of the United States in the rest of the world, to second place?
Yes, without a doubt, his top priority is going to be the domestic agenda. The domestic agenda is dominated by three main issues: the economy, the pandemic and racial issues, such as the murder of George Floyd in May. These are his top priorities, and then comes the foreign agenda. The emphasis will initially be on domestic policy, as is the case with everyone else. People are suffering a lot, they've lost jobs, the crisis is very hard and Biden has already presented a series of 2.2 billion dollars in projects to help companies or people in difficulty, 400 billion in domestic purchases, 300 billion in R&D, raising the minimum wage to 15 dollars and, in addition, he has a very intense domestic programme. And then COVID-19 obviously, which has been one of the big failures that has cost Donald Trump dearly in this presidential campaign, as well as highlighting the racial problems. These are all very important issues and they are going to put the international agenda on the back burner.
Despite the result, Donald Trump has sold out. No one expected him, not even the polls, to have a degree of struggle to the last minute in some states where Joe Biden was the winner by a bigger margin. Hasn't that struggle surprised you to the end in states like Nevada or even Georgia that was decided last Saturday?
Well, what surprised me was that Trump had more followers than four years ago. After what he has done during these four years that is what I find really surprising. On the other hand, the states that you tell me were traditionally Republican states, like Nevada or Arizona. Arizona I don't think has voted a Democrat since the seventies. Georgia is an underdeveloped state, they are traditionally Republican states that Joe Biden has conquered, even if only by a little, it really is a pica in Flanders. But what surprises me is that Donald Trump got 70 million votes, which is 48 per cent. The fact that he has 88 million followers on Twitter is less surprising because I understand that it can be fun to follow the nonsense that he continually says, but that people go and vote for him, and that they vote for him in greater numbers than four years ago, is surprising. That has frustrated Democrats, taken away seats in Congress and prevented Democrats from taking over the Senate. Unless in a run-off election, which will only affect the state of Georgia where two seats are at stake, Biden will campaign in Georgia for those two seats. If he fails to win them, the Senate will be Republican and this may prevent him from achieving his domestic agenda in particular; in foreign policy the presidents have more room for manoeuvre, but the domestic agenda is controlled by Congress.
Has Donald Trump's attitude of questioning the system done much damage or is the democratic system in the United States much stronger than a Trump tantrum saying there has been fraud?
Furthermore, that Republican states are accused of fraud, it is said that there has been fraud in Arizona, Nevada, in Georgia, where the governors are Republicans, does not make any sense. I think it's pathetic, American democracy is very solid, the power sharing system is a very strong thing and it can handle Donald Trump, but I think this is doing a lot of damage. Democracy is in retreat in the world, this is an obvious fact. Today, people in a number of countries think that authoritarian regimes in times of crisis work much better because they are able to mobilise resources and funds much more quickly. Because you don't have to ask for so many opinions because it is a man who decides and it is immediately done and this is causing democracy to lose ground; this has become more accentuated now. Let Trump behave like Lukashenko, who is not in favour of losing elections because it is pathetic, because the United States is supposed to be a great democracy that has tried to spread the ideals of liberalism throughout the world.
Therefore, for this to happen in the United States does terrible damage to the image of the country and to democracy in general, I think this man is a fool. I still remember when he was ambassador to Washington and Obama came to power and I remember John McCain's elegance in the most elegant acceptance speech I remember, accepting his defeat on the first night. You were saying a while ago, maybe he is preparing for the future, maybe he is preparing to go around the country making speeches and holding rallies, raising money to set up a television channel to compete with Fox to run in four years time or to be the 'king maker', the one who decides who is the candidate. He will continue to have a lot of influence, 70 million votes are a lot of votes. And there is one thing that is very sad that is happening, and we don't talk about it that much. Donald Trump is behaving irresponsibly and I think it's pathetic, but what the Republican Party is doing is shameful. I have many Republican friends who tell me that they are ashamed of what is happening but they don't say so in public.
This Saturday we saw Rudy Giuliani, former mayor of New York, accuse the Spanish company Indra of being involved in election fraud. In fact, the Republican Party is joining Donald Trump's crusade.
Giuliani is firing left and right and is another individual who is pitiful in what he is doing. Because they are also doing it without presenting evidence in the style of Trump, making accusations that are not backed up by facts and providing concrete data and evidence.
That is the strength of the American system because I would like to see Spain, when a political leader does not tell the truth, cut off as Mr Trump has been cut off.
That is a huge controversy that is going on right now in the U.S. Should one cut off the broadcast of someone who is telling lies? Or should one allow the broadcast to continue and at the end of the broadcast say, "Look, what this man is saying is a lie. This is a debate about how far freedom of expression should go and how far the duty of responsible journalism should go.
Well, but we have seen a Fox, we won't say anti-Trump, but we will say that for the first time it has dissociated itself from Trump, in these past days in the coverage of everything that has happened after the electoral night there has been an important dissociation from Fox News.
There is everything, last night I was watching a program of Fox a tremendous program in which were collected all the allegations that are being made without basis or evidence about illegal votes, machines tricked to count badly, etc. Look I believe that Fox at some time was unmarked and for that reason Trump has caught him a lot of mania, but it is that what is happening is tremendous. What is happening is very fat and the professionals what they have had to see is that there are things that cannot be overlooked, is that it is too much.
The arrival of Joe Biden, how is it going to affect Europe? Can there be a division between France and Germany? We are seeing Mr Macron already defending this strategic autonomy of Europe and, on the other hand, we are seeing Mrs Merkel and her defence minister defending the exact opposite, namely a strengthening of the transatlantic Alliance.
I think it's not incompatible, they do have different hearts. Macron has been pushing from the start for what I think we need to have is strategic autonomy. Because what Donald Trump has done is to break the trust that we had in the United States as the ultimate guarantor of security in Europe. I believe that this is very serious, because we Europeans have trusted the Americans from the First World War until now and we have done very well, we have done so well that we have abandoned our defence in their hands and that is very bad. And for several presidents there has been talk that you should contribute more to your own defence. It cannot be that we have to pull the rug out from under you in Yugoslavia or in Libya because you are incapable of doing so. In other words, I believe that Europe must do this because in four years another Trump may return and we must ensure our defence. Having said that, I believe that there is nothing incompatible with revitalising the transatlantic Alliance. The United States and Europe together have almost 40 per cent of the world's GDP and 50 per cent of world trade, we are a great power and we also have another very important thing which is values, values which are based on the Judeo-Christian civilisation in the renaissance in the Enlightenment; putting doubt at the centre of the rational debate, putting the human being at the centre of the world; and these are values which are not shared in the Islamic world and which are not shared in Asia. We are therefore called upon to come closer, and I believe that it is not incompatible to seek understanding and at the same time seek a capacity for autonomy that is not a rival to the other, but can be complementary to it. And I believe that we would make great progress if Europe could speak with a single voice in defence of its economic interests or in defence of its rights or its freedoms; its values and at the same time back up this voice with a military power when necessary.
We spoke to Rebeca Grynspan about the Hispanic vote, what it is representing and what it has represented in the United States, and the need for the new president to pay greater attention to cooperation with Latin America at a time that is so complicated by the coronavirus.
Yes, it so happens that LA has not been a priority for any president. There we have the case of Cuba, we have the case of Venezuela, as the most prominent cases, but there is Mexico, there is what is happening in Chile, there is Brazil, in short, the South American continent should be very important on the US agenda, but they have other priorities, they look the other way, they do not quite understand. I believe that the day Hispanics realise the influence they have, they will not believe it; they are 14 percent, and the day Hispanics become aware of their power they will understand; and they already are in some states, for example Colorado, Arizona, Nevada and Florida, where the Cuban and Venezuelan minorities are very powerful and are very hurt by everything that smacks of socialism on the left, etc. But one very interesting thing is the religious vote, it is a very interesting issue in the United States, the evangelists have voted 80% in favour of Trump, the white Protestant evangelists, the Jews 68% in favour of Joe Biden; the Catholics divided, votes completely divided between Biden and Trump. It's a fascinating analysis to be made there.
