José Manuel García-Margallo: "Sánchez would have wanted an Esquerra government with the commons in exchange for their continued support in Madrid"

José Manuel García-Margallo, Member of the European Parliament and former Minister of Foreign Affairs and Cooperation of the Partido Popular, analysed the situation of the Rock of Gibraltar and the fact that the European Union will not tolerate the existence of a tax haven on the programme Atalayar on Capital Radio; he also presented the book 'Gibraltar: the second surrender', as well as giving the key points on the result of the Catalan elections and talking about the new stage that is opening up in the world with the arrival of Joe Biden in the White House.

These days he is presenting the book 'Gibraltar: the second surrender' written together with Fernando Eguidazu, ex-Secretary of State for the European Union, a book that reviews the keys to a historic conflict published by the Almuzara publishing house. Before that, I would like to know your opinion on Podemos' proposal that we stop selling arms to countries such as the Emirates or Arabia as a consequence of the internal war between the PSOE, on the side represented by Margarita Robles, and the Podemos faction of the government

I believe that this is the case, and what's more, Podemos' move comes at a very delicate moment for the Sánchez-Iglesias coalition government. A week ago, the foreign minister travelled to Saudi Arabia and the Emirates in search of funds to finance the invasions we have to carry out. The government has decided not to resort to the loans from the stability mechanism that was created especially for that purpose, it has decided that it is not going to resort to the 70,000 million that it would have access to, probably because they are reserving them for a time closer to the dissolution of the Cortes and an election. The other day, in a videoconference we had with Nadia Calviño, I raised with her what in my opinion is going to be the central economic issue in the coming years: at the moment the government can afford not to resort to the stability mechanism because all the debt it issues is bought by the Central Bank. When I put this to her, I explained that when everything stabilises, the time will come when the Central Bank will stop buying and we will have to resort to the markets to continue financing and at that point the markets will begin to prioritise and select the countries that offer them the best guarantees. She said that it was not entirely true that they were buying our debt; what is more, that there was some interest in the Middle East in buying debt and that this occurred when Minister González Laya travelled there with a very clear firm intention, which I insist is to bring in money. At this time, making a statement of this kind is possibly the clumsiest thing to do. These divisions within the government are having a cost that public opinion does not fully perceive because foreign affairs are far removed from concern and we are losing positions. Spanish foreign policy, an average country with 47 million inhabitants and a per capita income of 24,000 dollars, is an average power. If it has to fight above its weight, it has to have a strong voice in the European Union and very close cooperation with the United States of America; going to Venezuela as Spain's foreign minister is not the same as going there as Spain's foreign minister representing the European Union and having the coexistence of the United States, and these two pillars are being dynamited. While we are on the subject of Venezuela, the government's decision to deprive Guaidó of his status as president, which is what the Bolivarian Constitution says, is going to have a cost in the European Union in which we have ceased to be the voice in a scenario in which we were recognised with a privileged situation, another was the Maghreb, and in both we have lost. In the Maghreb there has been recognition by the United States of Moroccan sovereignty over Western Sahara without having bothered to consult or notify Spain, and this is what is worrying, very obvious gestures are being sent. Speaking of Gibraltar, when the United States decides to stop an Iranian ship which, according to their information, was going to take oil to Iran in breach of the sanctions, they do not turn to the Spanish Navy but to the Gibraltar Navy.

In the book 'Gibraltar: the second surrender', in the title chosen by the two co-authors, yourself and Fernando Eguidazu, it is clear what we all understand: is a second surrender taking place over the sovereignty of Gibraltar

The first was in 1704, in which Salinas was the protagonist against an Anglo-Dutch squadron. In this surrender, Salinas desisted before the pretender to the Spanish Crown, Archduke Charles, but the Queen of England took advantage of the occasion to keep the Rock of Gibraltar until now. On this occasion, we had a historic opportunity with Brexit in which the European Union gave us the key when the negotiating team said that there could be no EU-UK agreement without prior consent. This would have allowed us to propose the formula that we were proposing of dual nationality co-sovereignty, institutions of high government in a special economic zone, including the countryside, and this was renounced. But Spain said that with Brexit it was not going to propose a system of co-sovereignty, and from that point onwards all the trump cards have been lost. But now a fiscal agreement has been signed, the first international agreement to be signed on Gibraltar since Utrecht in which Spain gains absolutely nothing.

Well, the Spanish Government has also said that the fence is going to fall..

This is going to cause problems, that is to say, it says very dangerous things. That the Schengen agreement is going to be applied and that an 'ad hoc' solution is going to be sought so that the European Union's rules are applied. This translates into mobility of people and goods without any control over Gibraltarian territory and Spanish territory. The controls will move to the port and airport, which are in Gibraltarian territory, with a peculiarity: the controls on people will be carried out by Frontex, a European agency, and Gibraltar, and the customs controls will also be carried out by Gibraltar. Spain will be the only country in the world of the 193 UN member states that does not control its borders. If the Gibraltarian tax regime continues to be respected, in which there is no VAT, no tax on alcohol, tobacco or oil, and corporate tax is not levied at all, at a zero rate, on profits made by companies established on the Rock from activities outside the Rock, which are all of them, this explains why, with a company of 33,000 inhabitants, there are 80,000 companies in Gibraltar. If you set up controls in the port and at the airport, and if Gibraltar does not change this tax regime, which means that everyone can come to Gibraltar and buy tobacco 40% cheaper, then we are going to have to close the tobacconists until Santander; it also means that ships passing through the Straits will continue to be supplied with cheaper oil in Gibraltar than in Algeciras or any other point in the Mediterranean; this is no small figure, 200,000 ships pass through the Straits every year. The companies that establish themselves in Gibraltar will have access to the internal market without paying taxes, in the problem we propose to move forward in the process of recovering sovereignty. Because it seems that we are prepared to have a Cayman Islands on the fence with the Line, and this produces an extractive economy that condemns the Gibraltar countryside to dependence. Look, Gibraltar, which has 4.7 km2, 33,000 inhabitants and no natural resources, has the third highest per capita income in the world, after Luxembourg and Qatar; in figures, two years ago 93,000 dollars compared to La Línea with 20,000, a difference of 1 to 6, the biggest difference between contiguous territories including the differences between the southern United States and Mexico which is 1 to 5 because Gibraltar's economy is 25% dependent on the economy of the Rock. This is a temporary situation, the European Union will not tolerate a tax haven in the end, so the whole artificial economy will collapse. It is very simple to understand that Gibraltar lives fundamentally from being in the internal market with a special regime that was established when the United Kingdom joined the European Union and it is there because there is an article, Article 655 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, which states that European laws apply to those territories whose external relations are managed by a Member State; therefore, when the United Kingdom leaves, this condition is not fulfilled. So the solution that exists is that of co-sovereignty, in terms of external relations, the condition would be met for Gibraltar to have access to the internal market, which would mean that the fence would disappear. In Defence we could have taken the opportunity to create a large base in the Mediterranean with Rota and Gibraltar, which now function poorly due to the conflicts we have over sovereignty in air and maritime space, border control, asylum and refuge. The rest, self-government as provided for in the Spanish Constitution in 144, dual nationality and a special economic zone that would also include the Campo so as not to have these differences between one country and the other with incentives for companies that want to take advantage of the traffic coming from Asia or Suez, handling, export, etc., or to be the headquarters of the companies that will necessarily have to be financed so that they invest in Morocco. Africa is going to be the big problem in the coming years, with a population of 2.5 billion in 2050, with an average age of 18, and 54 in the European Union, and either you invest there, or the phenomenon of illegal immigration is going to be a ticking time bomb.

But what you are proposing does not give as many votes as what the government has done. Are they looking for the votes of La Línea and Campo de Gibraltar

That is the problem, but I insist that with our formula the work would not have been lost because it is true that nobody trusts any government there, so many plans have been made for Gibraltar that have not come to fruition and the situation there is so bad, with youth unemployment at 50%, that they think, forget the stories, that the special economic zone is a long way off. I went to the Campo de Gibraltar before I stopped being a minister and knowing that I was going to stop being a minister because of the issue of Gibraltar and Catalonia, and for this to work we have to start investing tomorrow and that was the connection of the Port of Algeciras with the Mediterranean corridor, the construction of a new port and the cleaning up of the area because until that is cleaned up there will be no company that will establish itself there. And if you were to start with this formula, there would also need to be an income guarantee for those who lose their jobs as a result of the transition from one model to another. We are talking about 10,000 workers, which is a mythical figure that I have always given because when we established a lane for workers to pass through without having to stop because of the controls that we carried out when we discovered that 124 million packets of tobacco were being imported into Gibraltar, in order for you to pass through that lane you have to identify yourself and 44 were identified. 

Now we are talking about Africa and the need to invest in the continent, given the current situation in Morocco with the US recognition of Moroccan sovereignty over Western Sahara, what would you do if you were Foreign Minister?  Investment opportunities and development are opening up exponentially

Morocco is the number one priority in Spanish foreign policy. That priority has to be combined with Algeria and with the aspect of the UN resolutions on Western Sahara. The first interview I had with Hilary Clinton in January 2012 was at a time when relations with the United States were very bad as a result of Zapatero's policy of withdrawing troops from Iraq and subsequent statements encouraging everyone to do the same, and the first thing Hilary Clinton told me was that she was starting to take Morón and Rota to Morocco. It was settled and with Algeria and Morocco we had no conflict and, believe me, when there is a conflict with Morocco any Spaniard notices it the next day. Morocco sends you a message and the Gendarmerie looks the other way and the number of small boats increases exponentially. 

Without going any further, when the vice-president of the government asked for a referendum we have seen the wave of disembarkations that has taken place.  

The figures are the figures, the last year that I was in the ministry we had 16,000 illegal immigrants while the first year of Sánchez in the government there were 69,000. Now the Sahara issue has to be treated with care; with regard to the resolutions that were passed in the United Nations, we have a special moral responsibility there, they were very measured. They spoke of the right to recognition and self-determination of the Saharawi people in an agreed manner and in accordance with the United Nations resolutions, and this formula had been agreed with Algeria and Morocco. If this is broken, I would not dare because I do not have the information, you are asking me if Spain should take the step of renouncing the doctrine that the Saharawi people have the right to self-determination and recognise sovereignty over Morocco, this is a very delicate step. We have spent many years in the United Nations doing a lot of jiggery-pokery and I do not have enough information to answer this question.

Do you think Borrell's visit to Moscow was a mistake and how did it turn out with that international press conference

Absolutely, the problem with Russia, and I had a splendid relationship with them, is that Russia is an empire for which time has not passed and what they always want is to be recognised as a world power. Moreover, there are things they are not willing to do, such as being taken for a ride, i.e. being promised one thing and having something else done. 

So you can't tell Russia that what it is doing with Navalny or the opposition is wrong for fear of its reaction

But we don't do that with China, Saudi Arabia or Iran; you don't say such things in public. We should not intervene in internal affairs, especially not at a joint press conference. All EU countries are like grasshoppers that lay their eggs in one place and sing in another. Has Germany said anything about Nord Stream? Not because Russian gas is coming to Germany. On the other hand, they are now talking about having the Sputnik vaccine recognised by the European Medicines Agency. Going there to say this, which has no practical consequences, to create a problem and to be answered as you have been answered does not seem to me to be profitable or prudent, because Spain is a medium-sized power and the issue of Russia affects us and we have defended the sanctions, but we should not exaggerate because no one is calling us to exaggerate on this issue. There are some things where it is not advisable to boast. Do you remember the issue of universal jurisdiction? When it occurred to us that a Spanish judge could try a citizen who didn't even know where Spain was for any crime and they made a monumental mess of it, Zapatero himself corrected it by saying that there had to be a point of connection, that there had to be something related to Spain. Well, I found that a court had to judge, at the request of a Tibetan monk who had become a Spanish citizen, the events in Tibet between the 1970s and 1990s and they wanted to put two former presidents of the People's Republic of China, the secretary general of the Communist Party of China and two generals in prison; of course, the ambassador came and asked me if I knew the Spanish public debt that China has. I tried to explain to him the separation of powers and the independence of the judiciary and the ambassador looked at me as if to say that he was an imbecile with what he was telling me.

Well, this concept of universal justice seems to have declined in recent years.

We had to do it through a bill, and the one who behaved like a gentleman with me was Alfredo Pérez Rubalcaba because he told me that it could not be done as a bill because it needed a report from the Council of State and this was urgent. And we did this by means of a bill that the People's parliamentary group in Congress put forward when the government had 186 seats. 

There is an issue, Mr García-Margallo, which in public is non-interference in internal affairs.

Of course, but now Laya is going to Turkey and says that she does not like the fact that they are going to make Hagia Sophia a mosque, and the Foreign Minister in the gallery next to her corrected her when he said, "Hey, don't interfere in these matters, or do you want us to talk about the cathedral in Cordoba? You can't go and poke your nose in. 

Let me take the opportunity to ask you about the new stage that is opening up in the world with the arrival of Joe Biden in the White House. Have all the issues that Trump complicated with the arrival of Biden alone been resolved?

This has taken a while, Trump has created a lot of problems, he took the embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. Pompeo, when Trump was practically on his way out, goes there and recognises Israeli sovereignty over the West Bank settlements. Biden is not going to alter the American foreign policy roadmap, which is very constant, he still considers that the adversary of the United States is China and that has an impact on everything, technology, the Silk Road, and so on. Moreover, I believe that this confrontation is going to be conducted in more civilised terms and seeking complicity, especially with the European Union. He will continue to see China as the adversary. He has also done something very important, which is to return to the Paris agreement, climate change, and he has said that he is returning to the nuclear agreement with Iran. He is not going to change his policy too much in Latin America, with less "shouting", he is going to continue with the recognition of Guaidó and, therefore, not recognising Maduro as president of Venezuela because in Latin America the issues are getting complicated again. There may have been a time when it seemed that liberal democracies were imposing themselves and now there is an invasion of the tide, and we have already seen what has happened in Ecuador, Bolivia, Argentina and, on the other hand, there is the Brazil of Bolsonaro or Maduro.

What do the results of yesterday's elections in Catalonia mean to you

I am sorry, because this is not a casual issue. This is not yesterday, Zapatero changes the ideological basis of the Socialist Party and turns it into a radical party. Zapatero realises that the class struggle is no longer the motor of history. When a man wants to buy a flat in Benidorm and what worries him is what Pedroche is going to wear on New Year's Eve. What he decides to do is to lead those minorities whose identity has been neglected, such as the LGTBI movement, the feminist movement, minority religions and peripheral nationalisms, and with these players he divides the bench. The PSOE supports the seditionist parties in Euskadi, Catalonia and Galicia and it worked out well for them with the tripartite in Catalonia, it did not work out well in Euskadi because there was a bomb in the T-4 and it worked out temporarily well in Galicia, in exchange for their support in Madrid, and it is the same thing that Sánchez is doing. And what Sánchez wanted, and this is not opinion but information, is that an Esquerra government with the "comunes" would have emerged with the parliamentary support of the PSC, in exchange for Esquerra continuing to support him in Madrid. Now I think their strategy, because they want to keep Esquerra, is to have a pro-independence government because Esquerra cannot cede the pro-independence flag to Junts and because they believe that they will get more out of Sánchez by heading a separatist government with Junts and the CUP than by joining a left-wing tripartite. In addition to the pro-independence government, I believe that there will also be a dialogue table where they will talk about things that go around the Constitution, such as amnesty and self-determination. And Catalonia will end up in an ungovernable situation.