Nabil Driouch: ‘Explaining the new Spain to the Moroccans will help to strengthen ties’

Atalayar had the opportunity to talk to Moroccan journalist and writer Nabil Driouch, who now directs the news services of the television channel Medi1 in Tangiers, at the El Minzah Hotel in Tangiers.  

As a Hispanist, Nabil Driouch has already written several books and is one of the people most concerned about relations between Spain and Morocco, which are currently going through an exceptional diplomatic, social and economic moment. 

Nabil Driouch has just published the book ‘Spain Now’, which is essential to know what has been the evolution, what is the current situation and to understand and comprehend the relations that fortunately now between Spain and Morocco are in fairly good health and that it is worthwhile to improve them even further. In the conversation with Atalayar, the Moroccan journalist and writer also refers to the process of writing his latest literary work.  

Nabil Driouch, how did you write this book, how long did it take you and what is its aim? We know it has taken him a long time; a book considered a reference in the relations between Spain and Morocco.  

More than a book, it is a life.  

I have been following Spanish political life for more than two decades now, writing almost every day, especially when I worked in the written press, about the political parties in Spain, the political panorama, the changes that Spaniards and Spain as a country have been going through. 

The book came to me in 2017, when the Catalan crisis broke out in Spain. Everyone started to talk about Spain, about the drastic changes in the political landscape and I said to myself that Spain needs a book, in other words, Moroccans need a new book to explain what Spain is today, because the country has changed drastically since the economic crisis.  

Here it is not the Spain of the democratic transition, it is not the post-Franco Spain, nor the Spain of Aznar or Zapatero, and in Morocco we were for many years talking only about the democratic transition within Spain and seeing Spain as a model within the Mediterranean and a model for the countries of southern Europe.  

That's when the idea came to me, to explain Spain to the Moroccans. And I began to read more, to listen and to follow the changes in the Spanish political scene and I began to write.  

I had been writing this book for almost four years, so each chapter for me is a lot of work, many months of research, many meetings with Spanish journalists, with politicians... it's a life for me. I lived this book before writing it.  

After reading your book, ‘Spain Now’, the transformations of the Spanish political landscape from 2008 to 2023, a question arises: Is your new publication a continuation towards the more specialised or a new experience in your trajectory as a writer?  

For me it is a new experience because I used to write about Spanish-Moroccan relations, about the diplomatic and political crises between Morocco and Spain over the last 20 or 25 years.  

Now I have to explain what Spain is for the Moroccans, because I believe that good relations with Spain require an understanding of the country, its political landscape and its society.  

Everyone was following the economic crisis that hit Spain from 2008 onwards and the flourishing of new political parties such as Podemos, Ciudadanos, Vox, but the Moroccan political and cultural elite knew and still knows little about what Podemos is, what Vox is, about the drastic changes in the Spanish political landscape. That is why we have a certain need to explain the new Spain to the Moroccans.  

This will help us to strengthen the ties between the two countries. I chose to explain the new Spain to the Moroccans through the official language of Morocco, which is Arabic. We all know that the vast majority of Moroccans are fluent in Arabic and it is not just for a French-speaking elite or a Moroccan Hispanist elite; no, it is for everyone, to build bridges and strengthen ties. 

That's right, it's for everyone. Thanks to the Arabic language, you gave the Arab world access to knowledge and information about political life in Spain. How did the intellectual elite there welcome this new publication?  

I still don't know anything about the Arab world, but I do know about the Moroccan elite.  

This book is a best seller in Rabat. At the last Rabat Book Fair there were people looking for the book and looking for me to sign it, and for me this showed an interest among Moroccan intellectuals, among the Moroccan political elite, in learning about the changes Spain is undergoing, because in Morocco we have many very good Hispanists, who are fluent in Spanish, but there are some holes in the speciality of Political Science in Morocco.  

In Spain we have a group within the Autonomous University of Madrid, for example, that is dedicated to academic research on the Moroccan political panorama, the history of political parties in Morocco, etc. But in Morocco few people could write about the Spanish political scene.  

At a certain point I wrote to Mohamed Larbi Messari, who was one of the great Hispanic masters, who explained to us, as new generations, the democratic transition in Spain. Thanks to Larbi Messari and other Hispanists, few in fact, I was able to get to know and get closer to Spain and its politics.  

Before I could handle and speak Spanish or read Spanish, my interest in Spain passed through the Arabic language, and the publication of this book is like a return to my roots, a return to my first experiences, my first contact with Spanish political life, which was in Arabic and not in Spanish, because Spanish came a little later.  

Exactly, and many people consider it a jewel, an added value for documentation and research in Arabic, in the field of politics and the Spanish political scene. What impact did it have and what reaction did it generate in Moroccan readers or in the press in general?  

Those who have been able to read the book tell me that they now know more about Spain, they know the Spanish political panorama better, they now understand what Podemos is, they understand what Vox is, they have a certain knowledge to be able to analyse the Spanish political panorama and also to be able to understand the Spanish people and how they think, because we cannot negotiate with someone we do not know, because human beings are always afraid of what they do not know.  

And it is an essential introduction for any reader interested in learning about political life in Spain. The issue of Spain's northern neighbour is also becoming increasingly important for the Moroccan elite. What is your opinion here?  

This is true, because before the sun or the light of France somewhat overshadowed the subject of Spain, because the Moroccan elite felt more comfortable talking about French politics, about French parties, because they have easy access to the language and history of France due to the colonial relations between France and Morocco, since France opted for a cultural policy in Morocco during the colonial period.  

In this sense, I can point out that Spain did not do the same and that is why we have more Francophone intellectuals in Morocco than Hispanists or Spanish speakers. This is not the case today. The world has changed and we are facing a totally new reality.  

Spain is a new country, a member of the European Union since 1986, and from the 1990s onwards, Moroccans began to realise that Morocco is facing a new neighbour, which is totally different from the Spain of the Franco era. 

They began to look for ways to create a cushion of interests between them and now Spain is Morocco's main trading partner and we have more and more generations who speak Spanish, which is becoming a working language in Morocco and also a language of tourism, as we have thousands of Moroccans who travel to southern Spain to spend their holidays there.  

I can say that the old image we had of Spain no longer exists, that in Spanish-Moroccan relations there are not only conflicts, but also cooperation. There are human relations, a common history between the two countries. 

Our duty as intellectuals, as journalists who have had the opportunity to live in Spain, to get to know the Spanish people, their culture, Spanish political life, is to transmit what we know to the Moroccan public and to strengthen ties, as I said.

Of course. Going back to the rich content of the book and analysing in depth the changes that Spain has undergone in the last 15 years, what were the most tense and decisive moments in this panorama that lasts from 2008 to 2023?  

First of all, the economic crisis that hit Spain was very hard for Spanish society and I lived through that bad experience with the Spanish people because at that time I was in Madrid and worked as a press correspondent.  

I witnessed what the Spanish people were going through at that time. It was quite a hard blow for Spaniards because, after Franco's death, Spain entered a period of democratic transition, of economic growth. For the first time, Spaniards were beginning to feel European and Europe did not end at the Pyrenees, but at the Strait of Gibraltar.  

A drastic change in the history of democratic Spain, when the economic crisis hit and Spaniards began to realise that they were facing a reality that was quite different from the general image that they had, that we also had of modern Spain. That there were some holes and some flaws in the Spanish political and economic system.  

We see this collective awareness of the Spanish people in the demonstrations of 15 May 2011. I was in the Puerta del Sol with the young Spaniards, I was talking to them, chatting. So for me it is more than a book, it is a life.  

I tell what I lived through, that stage also of the economic crisis, of the movement of 15 May 2011 from which Podemos was born, of those protests, of that crisis, of that new collective conscience against what they call the caste, the political parties of the transition, the Socialist Party and the Popular Party, etc. New generations were looking for new solutions and answers to the questions of the economic crisis and the new reality they were beginning to experience.  

This was the beginning of a new political reality in Spain with the birth of new political parties. I talk about Podemos, about the details of the birth of the party. I talk about Ciudadanos, how it came from Catalonia to settle in Madrid and the debates within Ciudadanos.   

Ciudadanos is a response of Spanish society, or of the Spanish establishment, against Podemos. There are also some questions about this.  

The economic crisis and the new political reality brought about by the economic crisis also had an impact on the traditional parties, the Popular Party and the Socialist Party. We lived through these experiences, these coups d'état within both parties.  

Exactly, and from the economic crisis came the political crisis in Spain with the separatist wave in Catalonia. How do you assess the position of the Spanish parties in the face of this wave?  

Catalonia is part of Spain, that's for sure. And the economic crisis has hit the whole of Spain. In other words, young people in Madrid, Valencia, Granada, were there protesting against the Spanish state, but they don't have, let's say, that idea of separatism that exists in Catalonia.  

Catalonia is the economic engine of Spain. The Catalans feel that they have their own identity, their own history, and that there was a conflict under the carpet for some 40 years during the transition thanks to the policies of Jordi Pujol, who was the president of the Catalan government from 1980 to 2003. 

So there was Pujol, playing politics with the socialists, with those on the right, with the Popular Party, even with Aznar. Instead of giving more, let's say, cultural and linguistic advantages, as a hinge party in Spain, Pujol knew how to manage things and everyone was quiet, everyone felt good. But that feeling of separatism, of them and us, was always there. A minority of Catalans defended this idea. The majority didn't care about this for a few years because they lived well, because Spain is a democratic country where there is a certain coexistence between Catalans and the rest of Spaniards. 

But the economic crisis did change, let's say, that chessboard. That's when the separatist parties started to move on the streets, people were fed up and there was a lot of poverty, high unemployment figures, as in Spain as a whole, etc. Some politicians, above all Artur Mas, were trying to use that card against Mariano Rajoy, who at that time was carrying out a drastic austerity policy to save the Spanish economy. 

That's when the clash began. I believe that this issue was first a certain political exaggeration on the part of Artur Mas that later escaped him. No one, at a certain point, could manage the street and everyone came out and started shouting and defending an idea that was hidden there. A minority, as he had said, of Catalans, defended this historic idea that exists in Spain. And from there we have reached the, shall we say, violent clash between the Spanish people.  

Let's go back to Podemos. In your opinion, has turning the anger on the Spanish streets into political change achieved its social and economic goals with Podemos? 

The answer is very relative. Why? Because first Pablo Iglesias arrived with the professors of the Complutense University and his friends from the extreme left to change the entire Spanish political system. To throw the caste out, let's say, and try to have a new Spain. ‘Spain of the people’ and some slogans that we can read in the books of the Civil War. You have to read the history of Spain in order to understand what is happening in Spain today. 

Politics always ends up changing ideas and behaviour. They always talk about a photo of the five founders of Podemos and in the end only Pablo Iglesias was left in the photo and then with his wife, etc.    

The ideal idea, this political idealism or utopia that we want to change reality, political life in Spain ends up with people buying flats. 

What future could this young party have?  

It no longer has a future. I think Podemos is already part of Spain's past. I don't think Sumar is going to last long either. I think that Spain will once again be governed by two big parties, the Spanish Socialist Workers' Party and the Popular Party. These parties will become minority parties in the Spanish scene. I believe that they will have no future in Spain and that the crisis in Catalonia will end. 

The work that Pedro Sánchez is doing now and some of the powers that be in Spain will bear fruit in the coming months or years.  

I believe that we are going to return again to the situation of 2004, 2006, 2008; with two political parties in power and a certain political alternation within Spain. But Spain has learned a lot from that experience. 

I believe that Spain's politicians have learned a lot from the experiences of Podemos and Ciudadanos, and that they are looking at the reality of Spain through different glasses. 

As a specialist and writer specialising in Spanish-Moroccan relations, what is your vision of these ties between Spain and Morocco between now and 2030? What changes could they undergo and how do you see the future of both countries?  

What Spain and Morocco have to do is to bury history, to take advantage of the lessons that history has taught us. We have to look to the future. If we always argue with the Spanish about the history of Al-Andalus, the Reconquest, the colonial era, etc., I don't think we are going to make progress in our relations, we are going to continue with the same wounds. We need to change the chip inside Spain and inside Morocco. 

In this, the media and intellectuals have a role to play, a key role for me. The media in Spain have to change the way they treat the image of Morocco and they have to come to Morocco to discover and to live, because Morocco always seems to us different from what we can believe.  

As with ’The Cautious Neighbourhood’, will there be a Spanish translation of the book ‘Spain Now’?  

This book is for Moroccans. The Spaniards already have a lot of books and writings on Podemos, Vox, etc. There are some reflections by a Moroccan, the view of a Moroccan who tries to see and explain what Spain is, but my intention was to talk to Moroccans.  

I told myself that, after living this experience and these years in Spain as a correspondent and also as a diplomat for two years, my role now is to work as a journalist and activist as well, to fight for this cause which is to strengthen the ties between Morocco and Spain and not wait for someone else to do it.  

In other words, that is also my role. I was just starting to work and I didn't expect anything financial from this book. I wrote it only to give it as a gift to friends and for the Moroccan elite. It is my duty as a journalist and as a writer.  

It is important for Morocco to get to know Spain, especially so that a deeper relationship can begin, not only with the Socialist Party, which now, with the Sahara issue, is very much in favour of Pedro Sánchez.  

In Spain there will be an alternation in power and the Popular Party has been on the verge of winning and it is assumed that in a short time it will be in power so that relations with Morocco will be as fruitful or even more so than with the Socialist Party. 

Within the Popular Party, there is no real awareness, and above all no information, of Morocco's transcendence and new reality. Perhaps this book can work from Morocco so that the Moroccan authorities or elite can try to get closer, understand or have a better relationship with a Popular Party that has certain ideas, as we have seen a few days ago in Parliament, because criticism or opposition to Pedro Sánchez should not mean a worsening or criticism of the relationship with Morocco. 

Yes, it is true, Morocco has had very good relations with the Popular Party during the time of Mariano Rajoy and I remember perfectly well that, in 2011, when everyone was talking about the return of the Popular Party to the Moncloa Palace, the Moroccan elite were afraid. They had prejudices from the Aznar era and the Popular Party frankly scared the Moroccan elite, because traditionally the Moroccan elite had good relations with Spain during the Socialist era, and also because of the island of Perejil.  

During Felipe González's 14 years in the Moncloa, Moroccans and Spaniards got along well. It was a golden era in bilateral relations and that is when the two countries began to talk about cooperation, because before, cooperation was a word that did not exist in the political vocabulary of Morocco and Spain.  

Franco died and we were in a conflict over territory, over the Sahara, and the issue of Ceuta and Melilla always comes up. There are always quarrels with Spain and, as some Moroccan politicians used to say, in the 1980s and 1970s we had more interests with France than with Spain. With Spain we only had that fishing agreement, which also becomes a problem from time to time. It is not cooperation, but it is also a conflictive issue in Spanish-Moroccan relations.