Valentina Martínez: "Zapatero skipped the consensus on which we had built Spanish foreign policy, Sánchez is doing the same"

Valentina Martínez Ferro, PP politician, spokesperson of the Foreign Affairs Committee since 7 February 2020 and member of the Joint Committee for the European Union, stopped by the microphones of the Atalayar programme on Capital Radio to analyse the situation in which Spain finds itself in terms of foreign policy. In addition, the spokesperson for the Foreign Affairs Committee spoke about the avalanche of young Moroccans in Ceuta and the integrity of our borders. Finally, Martínez Ferro explained the position of the Popular Party in the current war between Israelis and Palestinians, which he hopes will lead to a lasting ceasefire.

The president of the Popular Party, Pablo Casado, has left a message on Twitter in which he reflects that I have spoken with Juan Jesús Vivas, president of the Autonomous City of Ceuta, which has suffered an avalanche of young people from Morocco and has demanded that the Government guarantee the integrity of the borders. Can this be considered a violation of the borders?

We are seeing how it is happening in real time and also the television stations in Morocco are broadcasting the signal live, also on social networks anyone can see it, it makes us understand that the integrity of our border is not well secured when three thousand people can enter in less than ten hours and in an open manner. As we also know the state of relations between Spain and Morocco, which is not at its best, the tweet ends by calling for cooperation with Morocco. All of this so that those people who are entering Spain illegally can be returned.

Logically, in foreign policy in general, the national parties are all on the same page because it is in the interests of the state. Should Spain's position be one?

Yes, it should. The truth is that we have always tried to maintain a state policy on foreign affairs, on defence, on issues that concern the nation and that matter to all parties equally, in short. But it is true that, in this last legislature, since Pedro Sánchez has been president, we have seen some unfortunate misunderstandings or misunderstandings in foreign policy. Perhaps we have raised the tone a lot in recent years with very strong disagreements in Venezuela, for example, or in the strategic lines of Spain's traditional policy. Former President Zapatero was perhaps the first to break the consensus on which we had traditionally built Spanish foreign policy, and the Sánchez government is certainly doing the same.
 

In the case of Morocco, what is the first thing that Spain should demand of the Alawi kingdom? Evidently, surveillance has been relaxed in this border area and we are talking about three thousand people who have swum across, a dramatic image. What can be demanded of Morocco when it has relaxed surveillance?

It is difficult for me to make demands of Morocco and not to make demands of my government first, because I am spokesperson for the opposition and, therefore, I believe that it is the Spanish government that has the responsibility to protect its nationals, that is, the citizens of Ceuta, Melilla and the Spanish citizens, who are the responsibility of the Spanish government. The Government has to talk to Morocco to resolve the situation we are in. It is not enough to say that the Government is not aware of what is happening in Ceuta, which is the answer given by the minister to questions from journalists. All she has to do is talk to any of the representatives of the city of Ceuta and they will be able to tell her absolutely everything that is happening there. So that is the government's responsibility. The government cannot take Mr Ghali to Spain on 21 April, a month ago now, and we have no news of what has happened. The least we can ask is that, if talks, dialogue and cooperation have not borne fruit in a month, then we have to anoint him. The opposition is, of course, an opposition of the State and we know that we must not play with things that are important and fundamental to the interests of Spain. Of course, and for the same reason, we need to ask the Sánchez government to be very fruitful in this.

To what extent has UN Podemos been able to condition the government's response? Because when the High-Level Meeting was postponed in December, the then second vice-president called for a referendum on self-determination, an issue that he knew would not go down well in Morocco. It is one thing to say this as leader of Podemos, and quite another to say it as vice-president of the Spanish government.

Indeed, on the 21st Mr Iglesias was still vice-president. It is true that the United Podemos and Pablo Iglesias, in particular, has probably been one of the essential factors in the government's radical shift in foreign policy. This was seen in González Laya's trip to Bolivia with the King, when he made a separate agenda, and in this episode of the Western Sahara, where a vice-president cannot ignore the Government's foreign policy line; in fact, what Laya said to him was that I set the foreign policy here. Who is it that sets the priorities of Spanish foreign policy? Because we cannot have a man as vice-president who does not agree with them. If he is asking for recognition of Western Sahara as Vice-President, he is asking for it as the Spanish Government. To what extent are you involved in Mr Ghali's entry or not into the United Podemos? I really don't know, but nowadays, they are not one of the fundamental factors in foreign policy since Pablo Iglesias is no longer involved, I think he is now advising the presidential candidate in Peru.

I was thinking about the government's opposition to not wanting to explain anything, not giving any further explanations to Morocco. To what extent has Yolanda Díaz been able to influence this?

Of course, so far we are not aware of anyone with a strong international agenda, or with international positions such as those of Pablo Iglesias or Juan Carlos Monedero. Yolanda Díaz is not one of those people who have stood out in this political formation for having a strong international positioning. That doesn't mean that she won't have them, and I don't know to what extent she is capable of having an influence today. But the problem is not with the rest of the government, the problem is with the President of the Government, who has the capacity to lead a team that is his cabinet. A cabinet of ministers chosen by him and to whom he will give the instructions he deems necessary.

The foreign minister, chosen by him, is from the Socialist Party.

It seems to me that there was a vice-president who could create a certain distortion, who is not the vice-president today, but we don't know what President Sánchez thinks about this. And we know that the only thing that Minister Laya says in relation to this issue is that they are having discreet conversations and that she does not want to talk about it.

The president of the Popular Party, Pablo Casado, held talks with two representatives of Moroccan political parties because the nine parties in Parliament issued a statement demanding explanations from Spain and questioning that there was no loyalty in relations between two neighbours who had to understand each other where relations were excellent and that what was happening was not understood. With regard to the Sahara, has the Popular Party defined its position on whether or not it supports Morocco's sovereignty over the Sahara?

Well, the Popular Party has always taken the position of referring to the United Nations, the international organisation, where the cause of the Sahara has been discussed for years, and that is where this discussion should take place. That is where Spain should not play the role of passive spectator, but should be active and propose to the parties that they sit down and find a just, peaceful and lasting solution. And at the same time, we must also ask the United Nations to send the High Representative with robust resources and the best possible means to ensure that the United Nations mission, which has been deployed in the Sahara for 20 years, reaches a successful conclusion so that a referendum on self-determination, an electoral roll, and the work entrusted to them can be carried out. But this must be promoted as a country. It is not enough to say that we refer to the United Nations and simply do nothing. We refer to the United Nations, without a doubt, but with an active position as a country like Spain.

Then there is the immigration part because Spain is a country that receives immigrants by the hundreds of thousands every year. And one of the first moves of Pedro Sánchez's government when the motion of censure took place was to take in immigrants, we remember that boat that was immediately sent to Spain. The first gesture was to welcome all those in need. Could this have provoked a "call effect", as it did under Zapatero's government?

Humanly speaking, it is extremely understandable that these young people want to jump to European countries, to Spain, France, Germany, in search of a better future. It is logical, understandable and human. That is why one of the things that is important and on which we place a lot of emphasis is the importance of cooperation in the countries of origin. And this is very important, that both the President of the Government and the Foreign Minister work with Senegal, with Morocco, with Algeria and with all the countries in the area to strengthen their economies, to strengthen their relations with us, with the European Union, and to be able to develop these countries, the more the better, in order to prevent illegal immigration from continuing to be a problem. We also have a 14-kilometre border separating us from Africa, but Africa is going to have a monumental demographic explosion. The President today presented the Spain of 2050, in that Spain of 2050 he counted how many immigrants we could have here, if this is exponential. As an exercise, it might be interesting to imagine the demographic explosion and all these young people, because they are very young countries and they are very strong, so what are they going to do in Spain?

Beyond Morocco, which is very important, what assessment does Valentina Martínez of the Partido Popular make of Spain's weight in the world of the government's foreign policy at the moment? The best thing would be for there to be a consensus, because foreign policy is supposed to be a state affair.

One of the things that has also caused this crisis in our relations with Morocco is the difficulty this government has in explaining itself, the difficulty this government has in engaging in dialogue. Not only to say that it likes dialogue, but to exercise it, because dialogue is produced by talking, calling, reaching a consensus and holding that conversation. Dialogue is not I have sent a piece of paper and you have to take that piece of paper for granted, and we cannot enter into dialogue because you do not have the capacity to influence it. This is the way in which, unfortunately, this government tries to talk to us about foreign policy, which is none at all, which makes it very difficult to reach an agreement and reach a consensus. Having said that, it is true that, without being a catastrophist, I believe that Spain's foreign policy is at the worst moment that I can remember since I have been active in politics. The transatlantic relationship, with the United States, which is probably one of the naturally important countries and which we should therefore have a fluid relationship with them, which we have had, is now unknown. Biden has not spoken to President Sánchez, I think Blinken did call Laya at some point, but it must have been a short enough conversation because there has not been a greater unfolding of what took place. With Latin America we are at an irrelevant moment. This morning the Prime Minister announced his Latin American tour, which will be Argentina and Costa Rica. With all due respect to these two countries, which are extremely important, but a Latin American tour when one goes to the region for the first time, and since one has to cross the entire continent to go from one stop to the other, one has the feeling that we are at a very weak moment in foreign policy. With Morocco we are already seeing what is happening, with the European Union, for which we are the fourth largest economy, now that the United Kingdom has left the European Union, the only Atlantic country with a true Atlantic vocation, together with Portugal, which should be pursuing this transatlantic link, relaunching our relations not only with the United States, but also with Mexico. Mexico is not going to invite us to the bicentenary. What can I say about Venezuela, and what can I say about Bolivia? The minister went to Colombia and did not want to meet with part of the peaceful opposition that President Guaidó of Venezuela has there, and then the Secretary of State was sent to apologise. Furthermore, in Brussels we send the reconstruction plan and they send it back two days later saying that they don't really know if the plan we have sent is one with or without the reforms. One gets the feeling that we could really be doing much better.

There has also been concealment on the subject of the reconstruction plan sent to Brussels, because this is something that should also have been agreed with the opposition groups, with all the Spanish political parties. All together to reach a better agreement with Brussels.

When what the reconstruction plan entails is the economic and therefore social future of Spain for the next 30 years, when it is intended to take the great modernising step towards digitalisation, a greener economy, a cleaner economy, if everything else is good and there is money to do it, they give us 140,000 million, this entails an enormous effort as a country and some important transformations, what less than involving everyone. It is not a problem of reaching a consensus or that you have to bring it to Parliament and that you are afraid of whether they will take it out or not, it is that you have to be able to convince us that this is the best plan for Spain and that everything should be clear, because it makes no sense not to do it, unless you are not sure of what you are presenting.

Or that there is unconfessable conditionality, which I think is what is happening. We are learning drop by drop what the reconstruction plan is going to mean for Spanish citizens. We are seeing it through journalists' investigations into tax rises, road tolls, the withdrawal of deductions for joint tax declarations, and so on. In other words, these are small pieces of news that are coming to light and which show that Brussels was demanding conditions at the end of the day, and these are the conditions, the ones that hurt the middle and lower classes. 

Part of the problem has been the government's inability to accept that this should be done in a transparent way, in other words, that everyone should know what they have to do, what the criteria are. The Royal Decree does not even contemplate the criteria by which these funds will be awarded, nor what criteria someone has to fulfil in order to have or develop a project that will be financed. This happens on an individual level, it happens with the autonomous communities, it happens with the local entities and what there is is enormous confusion about how these 140,000 million are going to be accessed and it seems that only the big ones are clear about it, and there are some that have already presented it. There is enormous confusion, among other things, because it is not very logical that the president's office should be the one to decide all this. If the office of the president, before having these 140 billion, functioned to serve the president, now, to be able to manage 140 billion, either they triple the number of people who are going to be there managing all this, or they should tell us how they are going to be able to do it.

The war crisis between the Israelis and the Palestinians, between the Israeli army and the Hamas organisation, how does the Popular Party see it ending at some point? Naturally there has to be a point of mediation, the United Nations is trying, as are different actors in the area such as Egypt and the United States, but the bombings continue and civilians continue to die on both sides.

We see this with great concern. The images we are seeing are very harsh and we know what they are suffering on one side and on the other. On the other hand, we also recognise, and it is important to do so, Israel's right to defend itself and its territorial integrity and the lives of its citizens, and what we in the People's Party are calling for is for mediation to bear fruit. We must support the efforts of the international community to try to reach a lasting ceasefire and for the situation to be restored.

In the Conference on the Future of Europe, as far as I know, there is agreement, at least within the European movement, there is unity of action with the Socialist Party, with Ciudadanos, and they are all rowing in the same direction. 

This Socialist Party is very recognisable.

There are several socialist parties...

Yes, well, the "Sanchista" and the non-Sanchista. The future of Europe and the European Union is fundamental. This Conference that has been set in motion is something that concerns us all. Moreover, it touches on day-to-day issues, health, vaccines, health, immigration, fiscal union, foreign policy. A series of issues that affect Europeans on a daily basis.